NATIONAL PODCAST - 2 August 2021
CLANCY OVERELL, HOST: It's been a while since we interviewed a member of the political class, one of the swamp things who spends a lot of time down there in Canberra on our dollar. We've interviewed a fair range of pollies over the years, but it's been a while since we've done this. And maybe it's because politicians go missing during crisis in this country. We've interviewed Anne Ali, we've interviewed John Barilaro of New South Wales Deputy Premier fame. We've actually reached out to Crisafulli, our own opposition leader up here, and Jackie Trad, the late Jackie Trad voted out in Queensland, saved Andrew’s arse there, being replaced by the Greens. Yeah, of course, Michael McCormack, the former deputy PM, was one of our last federal politicians we interviewed on here, as well as a whole range of ex-politicians who are happy to talk once they're out of the top job. Christopher Pyne comes to mind, the insider.
But today, today's guest is a sitting politician, sitting MP from the electorate of Solomon in the Top End, voted in in 2016, and former ADF serviceman. Thank you for joining us today Luke Gosling MP.
LUKE GOSLING, MEMBER FOR SOLOMON: Great to be with you, Clancy.
OVERELL: Now, mate, you are living in the true free state at the moment. You’re streaming, obviously, coming to us live from Darwin. Tell us a little bit about life up there. It certainly isn't the same as, you know, life in the in the East Coast with these snap lockdowns, or in New South Wales, case, never-ending lockdowns.
GOSLING: Yeah, certainly a lot better than that, mate, although we did have a quick one-week snap lockdown recently, but we bounced out of that after a week. All Territorians did the right thing, and we find ourselves having a following week where we just wore a mask around. Everyone did the right thing and we're free as a bird again. So we've got the Darwin Cup on this Monday coming, so the cup carnival's on. Victoria's out of lockdown. So they’re – they they had cancelled their trips to the Territory, but they're on their way back in in droves. So we've taken a bit of a hit in that a lot of people from New South Wales coming up to the Territory for their holidays. But the joint is booming, cause we’ve done well with COVID and we've played that really vital national role with the Howard Springs facility and getting people back from overseas as well. So every now and again, we have some people come back from overseas with COVID, but they’re all handled out at the Howard Springs facility. And yeah, we're doing our best to keep Australia safe.
OVERELL: So tell me about Howard Springs, because everyone talks about Howard Springs. No one really knows what's going on out there. Some of us have seen pictures, you know, it's a little bit of a donga set-up. We kind of talk about this responsibility on the Government to provide federal quarantine facilities. We know that in Toowoomba, the Wagners have been shovel-ready since about December. They've got an international airport there. They could do it. They could get it done in a couple of months. They just need the Government to sign off and probably not even that much government funding. The Prime Minister's continuing to kind of sidestep that one, and will keep them quarantined in luxury hotels inside the CBD of our biggest economy.
Tell us what's going on in Howard Springs. What was it and what is it? Was it there before the virus? And it was an old mining camp. What's going on there?
GOSLING: Yes, so just quickly on Toowoomba, I mean, that's a no-brainer. There's an airport there, fly people in, get it done. And the weird thing is that the Prime Minister asked for advice on how you can get quarantine right last year. And he was given a report in October to say “you need dedicated quarantine facilities like Howard Springs, but around the country, open up more”. But now we've had 28 hotel quarantine leaks, it shuts down the economy, costing the Australian economy billions. So well done, Prime Minister, because he was given that advice. He asked for it, he was given it, he's failed to open up more dedicated facilities like Howard Springs, which has played a really important role. It's an old workers camp from the big Japanese gas facility when that was built, Inpex, and there was 5,000 workers out there. They're only using about 2,000 of the rooms at the moment for quarantine so far. Come back from Europe, UK, India, if people come from interstate and it's where there's a lockdown, they spend two weeks there. It costs $2,500 or five grand for a family. But it has not had one leak. No leak. Because it's a dedicated facility as opposed to a hotel which is not designed for quarantine.
OVERELL: No, no, shitty air vents don’t seem to do that well. I mean, they’ve even got a pool out there and Howard Springs, I’ve seen them having a dip there.
GOSLING: It’s beautiful. Beautiful. I’ve got friends out there at the moment. It's not the best way to have a holiday in the Territory, it's not like getting out to see Uluru, getting to Kakadu to go to the waterfalls, but there is a pool, you know, they get their ration every day to calm down. And they seem to have good time out there. Some have had too much of a good time out there, there it's been a couple of little parties there, but there's been no escape of the virus. And I think that's the key thing, and what the Federal Government should have done a long time ago, and I think they're just being stubborn, is around the country, there's still 30,000 or more Aussies stranded overseas. They should have been getting more of those back through dedicated facilities that wouldn't have shut down the economy.
OVERELL: So tell me, as a military man, what are your feelings? I mean, obviously, you’re from the Labor camp. So it is your job to kind of point out what the current Government's doing wrong. But coming from a military perspective, how do you feel watching this, I guess, vaccine rollout, just the way things are being handled in this pandemic, which aren't very regimented.
GOSLING: No, and not very competent. The problem was last year, to cut to the chase, the Government had the opportunity to buy Pfizer, buy a couple of different types of vaccines and they could have started getting everyone vaccinated. They could have even had a public information campaign to say, look, everyone get vaccinated. You know, we've knocked out the viruses and pandemics on the head before. Everyone has their vaccinations when they're a kid. So they could have done that, rolled out the vaccine, had some dedicated quarantine around the country, and we would have been right as rain. We would have been leading the world. But that's been disappointing to see that actually boarding up local JJ Frewin, who used to be posted up here in Darwin as the First Brigade commander. I know him well and the Government have brought him in to be the front person for the pandemic response. And just think, if the Health Minister and the Prime Minister and I had done their jobs, they wouldn't have been any need for that. But I'm sure, you know, General Frewin will do a great job. And it just seems more and more these days that the Government goes to the military and they've actually got a fair bit to do themselves.
They've just wrapped up 20 years of operations in Afghanistan. But very clearly with things in our region, in the Indo-Pacific region being pretty uncertain, they've got a lot of other things to do with their day jobs. So whilst the Defence Force is there for national emergencies and they did a great job with the bushfires, they did great job helping with coronavirus. But I think the Federal Government, if it could work a bit more cooperatively with all the states – regardless of whether they're Labor or Liberal or whatever – then I think we'd be doing a lot better than we are. And of course, we hope that New South Wales can get things sorted as quickly as possible, get the economy back on track. But time will tell whether they're able to do that or not.
OVERELL: Tell me, as a former serviceman, I mean, you ended up in Darwin like a lot of military men and women do. It's a big army town. You ended up there through your work with the ADF and found yourself in politics and remained there. Tell me, just harking back, you know, pre-politician to your time in the ADF, how does it make you feel when you see the army, just that term being thrown around like a toy that the Prime Minister can throw when things are grim? You know, the army was brought into the bushfires without any consultation with the New South Wales Government. The army was offered to this. And as you said in the Pacific, as well as whatever's wrapping up in the Middle East, there's a lot of stuff for the army to be doing. And they probably you'd say it's not actually commonplace for a Prime Minister just to be able to throw them around like that for climate or just disasters in general or public health episodes.
GOSLING: Yeah, no, you’re dead right. And I think the Prime Minister, there's no doubt that he's using the military in a way that's unfortunate. Of course, they’re servants of the people whenever they’re needed. But they've got an important role to do, to do all the training that they need to do when they're needed to defend the country and defend our interests, wherever that may be, whether it's in our regional or further afield. So I think he's used them as a bit of a crutch to try and back up his own leadership failings. And it'd be good if he stopped doing that and just let them crack on with all the other important training and exercises, like they're doing at the moment up in Queensland and across the north, because we've got to be training with our partners and allies so that we're ready for whatever comes next.
OVERELL: How did you find yourself as a member of the Labor Party? I'll ask you that. I mean, I don't think the ADF is viewed from a ground level in Australia as being particularly partisan to anything. The last war Australia took part in was under a Liberal Government. You yourself spent all that time moving around and overseas and in Australia. At what point did you realize the Labor Party was the party for you before you then went and got elected for the Labor Party?
GOSLING: It's funny, when you're in the military, I was in the Army, you don't really think about politics at all. I always voted Labor. I just sort of had a gut feeling. I wasn't from a political family, but I just had a gut feeling coming from a big family with not much money around that they were always looking after people that might be doing it hard, or looking after people, making sure they got an education and good health care. And then when I got out of the Army and started working overseas and seeing a bit more of how our society worked, because you’re kind of in a bit of a bubble when you're in the military, just doing your own thing, you're training hard, you're really proud to be serving the nation. And then when you get out and you just look around society a bit more, and just things struck me as being not that fair. And I kept meeting good politicians, particularly when I was over in Timor, both with the Army and [when] I started up a charity over there. And the good politicians, I mean, they're all Labor. And it grated on me when I did see Coalition people, policies, just didn't sit right with me. So I thought, well, I want to be part of the future leadership of the country. I'll back myself to do a good job. But I wanted to contribute, so I joined the party and I worked in different places doing different things. I worked in Indigenous health after the army, working with people in society on the fringes a bit. And so, yeah, I worked for a couple of companies as well doing health services. I had a bit more of a sense of what was good in society, what could be improved. And I just felt really comfortable with Labour because I reckon we've got the right balance that sits comfortably with me. I'm from a family that believes in social justice.
There's not a day that goes by that I regret my decision to join the Labor Party. I’ve been in the party for about 17 years or so now. Just about to come up to my third – sorry, my fourth election. I ran the first time in 2013 and lost by about 700 votes, but dusted myself off and said no, I think this is important, particularly for Darwin, because we're the capital of the north and we're such a big defence town. But we're also a city that's basically in our region. We're in South-East Asia, we’re a lot closer to places like Singapore, Denpasar, Dili in East Timor than we are to Melbourne and Sydney. Canberra, even – takes me 10 hours to get to Canberra; I can get over to Bali and in two and a half or so. So we're in the region. We're engaged with the region. And I just thought it was really important that we had someone who was going to fight for Darwin and fight for the north. So I ran again and won in 2016, won again in 2019, and so this election, really looking forward to getting some more responsibilities in our Federal Labor line-up. I am the only veteran in our line-up, and I'm hoping that's going to change at the next federal election because there's obviously a lot I can contribute to when it comes to northern Australia policy, Indo-Pacific policy, defence, veterans. And just really eager to get this next election over the way out of the way. I reckon Federal Labor can form the next Federal Government. Darwin will be looked after well by me, if I can say so humbly.
OVERELL: Is that the feeling up there in the Top End? I mean, it must be for some time now. It's an Asian city. Is that the feeling on the streets? Do you find, at least in the political end of town?
GOSLING: We’re a tropical city and to some extent, you're right, we're a nation city, but we’re also an outback city, you know what I mean? So we had the show on the weekend. And the Royal Darwin Show in 1986 is when I first fell in love with this joint. Mum and dad packed eight of us kids up into a Hi-Ace van with a trailer on the back, and they took us out of school and around Australia for over three months. And I remember rocking into Darwin after coming off the track after seeing Uluru and some of Litchfield and Kakadu. And we stayed in a caravan park near the Royal Darwin Show. And we didn't have much cash. We were living on sandwiches. But mum and dad want to want us to see our nation. And it was such a good time. We jumped the fence into the Royal Darwin Show and just ran around.
And Darwin has that mix of, yeah, we support all the agriculture, aquaculture, the cattle stations, the Indigenous entrepreneurs that are now out there on the land, they're using their land for carbon credits. They're getting into aquaculture. And there's a bright future for the Territory as the different mines come on board as well for some of those critical minerals that we really need to do all of that. And Darwin's the hub of that. And we've obviously got a port. that in my view should never have been sold. But we've got a port that connects us to the region. We've got an airport, the connections to cities from Manila through to Singapore, Malaysia, Bali, East Timor and everywhere in between.
So we are we are very much in our region. And the tropical feel – it's not Singapore because we haven't got that that much high rise, but it's got that kind of calm vibe and it's got the wet season and the dry season. So it's got that lovely mix of torrential rain, and every now and again, there's a massive cyclone, so everyone's got to be prepared for that every year. But we love the monsoonal rains. We love our dry season that we just got at the moment. And Darwin Festival just about to start where it's perfect weather every day. So, yes, it's hot. But you definitely know when you get off the plane at Darwin Airport that you are in the tropics. And you are in the region when you get off that plane, because the warmth hits you, and when you go to our markets, you can just eat any type of Asian food that you'd want to. And you see it around the streets – we’re the most multicultural place in Australia. And a big percentage of that multiculturalism is our First Nations. So you've got people that have lived here, the Larrakia people, for millennia. And you've also got Yolngu people from Arnhem Land, because this is the base that services the rest of the Territory. So you see all sorts and we just love it that way.
OVERELL: You said you worked in Indigenous health and education there. Currently got to Labor NT Government at the moment under Michael Gunner. I find the Northern Territory's an interesting one because NT Labor particularly doesn't necessarily align immediately with Federal Labor right now. Gunner’s copping a lot of flak. You know, the issue of jail not bail, you know, Indigenous incarceration of Indigenous kids. What are your thoughts on some of these socioeconomic issues that that everyone points to the Territory when they want to highlight the existing towns all around Australia? But the Territory does have, you know, some pretty alarming rates. What are your thoughts and what do you think you can bring to a federal level regarding a lot of these issues?
GOSLING: Yeah, I mean, I'm not an expert, but I have I had the privilege of working out in Arnhem Land with young soldiers as part of Norforce. And that was an incredible experience. When you're out on country with those Aboriginal Australian soldiers, you kind of get the connection. And it's amazing, their connection with country, their knowledge of country, the way that they're held in their community and the difference that they made by leading by example. A mate of mine, Timmy Duggan, he's got a great program called Hoops For Help. So, again, I'm not an expert, but I've been into Don Dale into that detention centre that a royal commission was launched over. And I've spent time there talking to the kids, playing a bit of basketball with the kids. At that time there was one non-Indigenous kid in there, but generally they're all Aboriginal kids. They're kids that have found themselves in in detention because of repeat offences. Unfortunately, with the new bail laws, it looks like there will be more kids in going through that process. But what we've got to do – and the Northern Territory Government has already implemented most of the recommendations of that royal commission into youth detention in the Northern Territory. They've received no financial support from the feds to build a new facility. We've got a situation where you've got kids, Aboriginal kids, some of them have committed crimes, some of them just repeat offenders where they've been put into Don Dale. And there is education in there while they're in detention. But the whole aim’s got to be not to have them go into detention in the first place and to do more diversionary work. So that's where we've got to focus more, and the NT Government’s moving that way. The other thing we've got to do, though, is we've got to lift this age of criminal responsibility, which at the moment is 10.
OVERELL: Did you see 10-year-olds in Don Dale, did you see kids that age?
GOSLING: Yeah, I saw I saw young kids in there that shouldn't have been in there. The NT Governnment’s responsible for law and order. They’ve got a responsibility to keep people safe. So obviously, no one wants to see people broken into having their stuff stolen, assaulted by kids. But it's a small amount of kids. And if we put more effort into those kids in those families, like we’re starting to do, then we'll find that these kids aren't recycling through that process. Because at the moment, all we're doing and what we found with the detention centre, human rights abuses that went on there – again, some of these young kids – is that we’re then setting up these kids for a life of going into the adult jail after youth detention and basically spent their lives going to being continually incarcerated. People talk about that the first 1,000 days and early childhood education, and I think they’re long-term fixes. But the short-term fixes have got to be that we spend more time on the families, keeping them out of detention in the first place. We lift the age of criminal responsibility so that we can work with the young kids, not get them into the criminal justice system at that early age where they just learn potentially how to be better criminals. And we've got to have a bit more understanding that there's so many social determinants and the history of intergenerational trauma that's led to the situation where these kids have got no support.
OVERELL: That's another thing I want to talk to you about, the intergenerational trauma, you know, obviously not specific to Aboriginal communities, but when it does come to Aboriginal communities, you can almost point to government policy that's caused a lot of it. What do you say to the pearl-clutchers – and they do exist. I mean, Darwin's a small town. Alice is a small town, but they're also full of pearl-clutchers, you know what I mean? A lot of people that would just rather see kids go to jail than to even take a minute to understand why these kids walk in the streets at night. And part of your job is making the tough decisions. How do you explain that to your constituents?
GOSLING: Yeah, and I was fronted about it yesterday in a coffee shop about, you know, what we're doing in Federal Labor. The unfortunate thing about Federal Labor is we keep losing elections. We've got First Nations policy ready to go that will transform relations between First Nations Australians and non-Indigenous Australians. It will revolutionize it right from work opportunities out in the communities, going back to more a CDEP program that we used to have where there was work on communities, where there was those opportunities for education and advancement into work, which makes a massive difference, but also the really foundational stuff from the Uluru Statement, like agreement-making processes, which are absolutely vital, but also Makarrata, a bit of truth-telling. I think one of the things that's needed so that we can all move forward as a country is just acknowledge that our history, and there’s massacres have occurred all through the Territory. But the reality and Stolen Generation – and I'm working with some Stolen Generations here in Darwin who still haven't been compensated, that history has an effect on the future generations. We need more people to be understanding and empathetic about that. Now, I'm not saying something controversial to say the current Federal Government has got a problem with empathy. I mean, their people do unconscionable things, and then get sent off to empathy training. That's not their strong suit. But what I would say with an incoming Federal Labor government is that because I think we're a bit more representative, and we've got a number of First Nations Australians in our in our mob -- Pat Dodson, Malarndirri McCarthy and Linda Burney and hopefully more after the next federal election – is that there's more of an understanding about how we're going to continue a process of moving forward together and supporting First Nations people, but just bringing the rest of society along with us and understanding the effects of intergenerational trauma and social determinants, i.e. those things in society that lead me to a greater likelihood of poor mental health, youth suicide, unemployment, addictions. Let's face it, addictions aren't just a problem in First Nations communities. So I think I'd like to see from people, leaders in our community, get on the front foot and just explain a bit more how our society will be better off. We'll spend less money on health and in the criminal justice system if we make the investments to have better wellbeing.
And I think regional Australia is going to have a resurgence. Places like Darwin and the Northern Territory are going to have a resurgence on the back of COVID, because people are realising that whilst we have our challenges, it's a great place to live. And generally people have better wellbeing, i.e. they're happier. They're not as stressed as people are in the big cities. And one of the stresses that's starting to happen in Darwin at the moment, and it's a big problem in remote communities, is housing. Housing’s a drama all around the country, here you can't find somewhere to live in Darwin at the moment. Rents have gone up 22 per cent. We haven't got enough affordable housing. So that's what I'd like to see the Federal Government get more engaged in, is helping young Aussies, doesn't matter what background they're from, get into their first house to help them get on their way to home ownership and build more affordable housing. That's just not as greedy as the current set-setup. And I think when people start thinking on the other end of this crisis about what we want Australia to look like, we'll have more people hopefully engaged in the solutions that we need, whether that be with First Nations issues or issues in western Sydney or wherever they might be.
You know, if we are really all in this together, then we need to start making sure that whether you're a multinational company that pays no tax or someone who's on minimum wage and is trying to get into the housing market, are we really all in this together? We need to make that a reality. And yeah, that's I guess what I'm focused on. And I just I can only talk for our mob, but we've got a $10 billion housing fund. And if we get the confidence of the Australian people after the next election, we'll kick that in gear. And that'll be better for people not just in regional Australia, but in the cities as well.
OVERELL: One criticism that Labor copped after the last election loss to the Nightwatchman, a shock election loss actually, on the on the eve of the death of Bob Hawke. But there was a lot of criticism that perhaps Bill and Labor, you know, Labor in general had forgotten what the middle class looked like, a lot of the policies and which have all just been ditched. Actually, I'm not ignoring that as well. A lot of those policies have been ditched, the unpopular ones. But there is a feeling that Labor had gotten to a point where they're looking at an ivory tower and kind of looking back to 20 years ago as to what the middle class looked like, where they I thought everyone looks like Kath and Kim driving a Holden Barina and supplementing their income with a Tupperware party, you know what I mean? And there are a lot more people that exist in that middle now who do have assets and are still very economically anxious but aren't reaping any of the benefits of the policies that came through with that election. How do you reconcile? You know, and I'm sure you've seen it and I'm sure you have no problem bringing it up that you do see people running around, whether they're elected or working as staffers who haven't really lived the life that Labor's trying to advocate for. You know what I mean? You've got a lot of university comrades, maybe packed shelves while they were at Sydney University, but they actually kind of detached from the working man. A lot of chinos with no socks, if you know what I'm saying.
GOSLING: Yeah, I'm hearing you. Yeah. It's a frustration of mine, I guess. When people say that Labor’s gone away from our roots, I don't think we can dismiss it entirely. And I've noticed actually, with our preselections for this upcoming election, you've got some people have got a life of working behind them, but there's no doubt that there has been a bit of a political class in uni politics and into local government, or straight into working as an adviser for a federal MP – which mind you, I did that after the military and I saw it as an apprenticeship before running for politics. It was kind of on the back end of 13 years serving the nation and working in Indigenous health and working in the charity sector and working in health services. So I kind of felt like, you know, I've got some life experience, and everyone has different life experiences. And people who are in inner city, particularly Melbourne and Sydney, they might really reflect their communities. But they also need to be very aware that around this country there are a whole bunch of Australians that don't fit into that inner city suburban mould. And I reckon that's why Albo’s spent so much time out in the regions over his career, because I think that's where people can – and we do in the Territory from time to time, particularly recently – feel like they're forgotten. And no Australian government is worthy of government if they're leaving any part of the country behind. I reckon we now, Federal Labor, are becoming much more representative of people around the around the country, I'd like to see us win more regional seats and I think we will see that at the next election. But we've got to ensure that we are reflecting and we're much more multicultural. We've got a 50-50 split with blokes and women in our team. So I'm really comfortable in the direction that we're going. But I think we did need to have that adjustment because we were not looking like we represented the whole country.
OVERELL: Yeah, it was kind of a little bit of a – in the wake of Hillary Clinton anyway, there was a lot of parallels that could be drawn. So you think Albo has addressed the fact that, you know, maybe it is worth putting a few blokes who have goatees in as candidates as opposed to, you know, kids with the with the undercut and the and the khaki suit?
GOSLING: Absolutely. Yeah. Heaven forbid someone with a tattoo, a bit of facial hair, or somebody might have said something that they regretted on Facebook 10 years ago. Whatever. Let's keep it real because we know we face real challenges in the future. It doesn't matter whether it's taking our economy to less carbon reliant, the First Nations issues that we've talked about, but real big security issues of the alliance, our relationship with China. And that's why Darwin is so important too, because we are the forward operating base for the nation. We've got the best relationships with our neighbours. I’ve spent a lot of time going in and out of Indonesia even right at the start of COVID trying to help them with their response. And as soon as we can, we need to get back in there again because our neighbours to our north are just so vital to our future security and prosperity and they’re our friends, and we should be helping them a hell of a lot more than we are.
And one thing I've been saying recently is because the government has just ruined the whole narrative around AstraZeneca, for example, we have got millions and millions and millions of AstraZeneca shots, and in September they're going to expire. Now, if we're not going to get to use those, if we're not going to be able to get them in arms by September when they expire, I mean, that is criminal. So we need to be getting them over to our neighbours. Because, for example, with AstraZeneca, the CSL factory in Melbourne, they're pumping out a million doses in a week. So we can get fresh stuff to Aussies. But before the stuff that's going to expire expires, let's get it in to help Indonesia. We could vaccinate the whole of East Timor, for example. And let's face it, we should be doing the right thing by them after how things evolved since our intervention in INTERFET. And look, there's a lot more with PNG that we could be doing as well. And they're facing a lot of challenges and in the Pacific. So we face some really big challenges with the emergence of China as a more authoritarian and with President Xi, with clearly a more aggressive stance by him. There's some big challenges we need to face in the future. And we need robust discussions. We need people with life experience that can really be in touch with our community and make sure that we're doing everything we possibly can to counter threats like cyber and the other threats that we're going to have – biosecurity threats – into the future so that we maintain the safety and security of the Australians and also the prosperity that going to mean that my kids and Australians all around the country have got a great country to keep living in for millennia – or at least centuries to come.
OVERELL: You do have a kind of world aspect, that that's the Darwin thing we've spoken about it before, you know, looking north and of course, your military service.
What I want to talk now a little bit about some of the operations we've been in over the years and the state of which we've left some of our friends, starting with Afghanistan. We spent a lot of time there.
GOSLING: 20 years.
OVERELL: 20 years. How do you feel now about the parachute of pulling the consulate out as quick as we did? You know, it was it was almost a week turnaround. What are your thoughts on what's going on over there right now?
GOSLING: Well, it's sent a really bad message to people in Kabul. A mate of mine from MY Army days is now working in a different capacity over in Kabul. And he was just saying it went around Kabul, that news, and it was like a kick in the guts that Australia just pulled the pin and just left after 20 years so quickly. And with so many Afghanis that helped us as interpreters, as security guards, that protected the lives of DFAT staff, AusAid staff, and obviously soldiers, saved the lives of many of our soldiers. And we sort of gave a handful of visas and said, now, see you later. good luck with the Taliban taking your country over again. So I've been very outspoken about that and a lot of veterans are very pissed off that we haven't done that a lot better. We're not talking about large volumes of Afghanis here either. We're talking about people that have been vouched for by Australians, that have been through all the security checks. Why more of them aren't being taken out – and they don't even necessarily come to Australia. But I'm on the record as saying that they're welcome here in Darwin. We'll provide a home for these people who saved our soldiers lives. We're not talking about big numbers.
OVERELL: Yes. So it's all happened. They’ve been security checked, they’ve been vouched for. What's the hold up? What do you think the Government's avoiding here? Why are they just treading water? Why hasn’t it just been signed off in the dark?
GOSLING: Well, that's a question that I'll be asking again in parliament next week, as will a lot of others, because and – and I've got to say, even people like John Howard have come out and said, we should be doing the right thing getting these people out. Now, obviously, he was the Prime Minister when we went in in the first place. But there's been a lot of PMs during that time. And we've shed a lot of blood and treasure in that country, and people in my electorate, it's rare that someone here in Darwin wouldn't know someone who served in Afghanistan. The majority have come back and kicked on with life. But there are many others that have struggled. And a lot of them, to be honest, mate, have struggled with the moral injury that occurred through the service and through not being able to intervene in certain situations. Obviously, there's been some acts by a very small amount of our soldiers that we can't be proud of, but the overwhelming majority of Australian soldiers served there in an exemplary way and they're now going, hang on, what was that all about? So to answer your initial question, we shouldn't have pulled all –
OVERELL: Sorry, moral injury. You're not talking about survivor's guilt, you're talking about a whole different thing there that people feel now, looking back at the country.
GOSLING: Yeah, and survivor's guilt is part of moral injury. You sustained that injury. And I think there's a lot of PTSD that's actually been diagnosed as the moral injury that people have had because of an experience they've had, something they've seen, as something they've witnessed, made it through the Afghan military or extrajudicial killings, but also that that deep feeling of whether people back home understand what I'm doing, whether people back home know that my mate was just killed, whether people back home understand – and I'm not sure, even myself – why I'm here. So those feelings of a soldier, sailor, or an aviator that have all served over there during that time. And then what I fought against really hard recently was, then we're going to take a meritorious unit citation off you because of the sins of a very small amount of you. I mean, this is nuts, and I'm glad that that's been overturned. But there's a number of moral injuries, I think.
And the problem that pulling out so hard and fast, leaving the Afghans who saved Australian lives behind and just sort of being seen to wash our hands of it, that's not good. We shouldn't have pulled out all our diplomats. We shouldn't have pulled out all our military advisers. We need to be, as well as we can, helping, as a member of the international community, the transition as the Afghan national government now tries to work out how they can live with the Taliban. One, how they can stop the Taliban from taking over the whole country, if that's possible, and two, how they're going to navigate this minefield of big powers: the Russians and their interests, the Chinese and their interests, the Pakistanis and their interests. It’s a difficult future for that country, and it's in a shocking message for us to cut and run like we did.
OVERELL: We're not detracting at all from the work that the soldiers did over there. But do you get the feeling that this is going to happen again in 20 years?
GOSLING: You know, unfortunately, I think it's pretty much inevitable that al-Qaeda is there, is coming back. The people that we were there to get rid of, so it wouldn't be a haven for more September 11-style attacks. So unfortunately for Afghanistan, their war-torn future will unfortunately continue. But, you know, I'd like to be optimistic in life. I think one thing that our people can be really proud of is there’s now more young women, for example, who have had an education, it's a more educated populace. It's a more internationally connected populace. And I think that even though young people mightn’t see a future there at the moment, and might leave. I think they're going to be a bit more resilient and supported, hopefully. And that's why I think we shouldn't have pulled all our people out when it comes to dealing with the Taliban, without US and other allies in support.
OVERELL: What are your thoughts on – and I imagine you’re working alongside of – a lot of the stuff Jacqui Lambie has been spruiking? Are you working with Jacqui on anything in regards to the treatment and support for our veterans?
GOSLING: Yeah, one hundred percent. I'm fourth generation Australian veteran. My mum's grandfather was gassed on the Western Front. Pop served in World War Two and lived with the effects of that war. And his son, my dad, was conscripted as a western suburbs kid from Melbourne, conscripted as a lot of them were to go to Vietnam. So I served, I think, partially because I think serving our nation is an honourable thing to do. But you definitely take the effects of your service with you into life, whether that be physical – I’ve got a mental hip from an injury when I was serving in Timor. I didn't serve in the army in Afghanistan, I served there in southern Afghanistan in security roles, and I visited Afghanistan a number of times since then, working on elections as an election observer, I've seen that that country and the transition it's gone through. But there's no doubt that accumulation of that overseas service, whether it be in or out of uniform, does have an effect. So many of our soldiers have been dishonoured. Soldiers, sailors and aviators have been dishonoured by a veterans support system that wasn't doing everything they could to help. So the Department of Veterans Affairs system that put so much of the onus on the individual to prove that they've had an effective service, that's had a really bad effect on them and their ability to transition into life after the military.
We all know that it's a difficult transition. But unfortunately, when we had so many suicides, many, many more suicides than we had lost in action in Afghanistan or Iraq, in other places, the system was letting our patriots, who served our country as volunteers, ambassadors for our country overseas, just let them fall through the gaps and let them deteriorate to such a stage that they took their own lives. And that's why with Jacqui and others, we fought so hard for the royal commission. And what we then fought for was for it not to be a whitewash, but for it to have really good terms of reference so that it looks at the whole system from recruiting all the way through the life of a veteran and their family, so that we support the families more. And these recommendations, whoever the federal government is, have got to be implemented. And I take my hat off to Jacqui and people like Heston Russell who’s a fellow commando who really put the pressure on Government, as we have, to fix the system. And the royal commission is an important part of us getting those recommendations that's going to fix the system. It means that when our men and women go off again to war, as they will in the future, that we look after much better. And that's our duty and it's a responsibility we take really seriously.
OVERELL: It's not just falling through the cracks, though, is it? I was on the piss with some Army boys up in the Gold Coast not long ago that all served. They're telling stories about in a group of five or six of them, they’re telling stories of blokes getting phone calls from the Government, telling them, oh, we've accidentally overpaid you on you on your pension to the tune of 10, 20, 30 grand. Imagine being already on the brink and getting that phone call, you know, 20, 30 grand in debt. How is it such a mess?
GOSLING: It's a good question. And you'd think we would have learned after Vietnam, you know. And I think the ex-service organization sector, it's got a big role to play. And I'm really looking forward to the recommendations that come out of the royal commission. How we can have those ex-service organisations better supporting individuals on a one-to-one basis, a really human contact basis, because that's when veterans do better, when they’ve got their mates who understand what they've been through, in touch with them and talk them through the process, helping them through the process. And basically, you've got a whole bunch of Vietnam vets, mainly, advocates around the country, who've been helping these contemporary soldiers, sailors, and aviators get what they should get anyway from the Department of Veterans Affairs in terms of, now, a card to make sure all their health care is covered, the mental health care is sorted. They've got their support from their local agencies. And the Department of Veterans Affairs grew a culture where if you hadn't filled out all this paperwork and if you hadn't done X, Y and Z, then they would just not give you any benefit of doubt or even help you as much as they could to do the paperwork.
So that, and to get through the process so you can get some financial stability, but also to have someone out there that you think is caring for you as a former serviceperson to get through. Now, don’t get me wrong. There's some great people in DVA, but their processes just become so antagonistic to the veteran that a lot of veterans – too many, way too many lost hope that they were ever going to be supported. And from the Gold Coast, Jesse Bird is a good example. And Karen Bird, his mum, has been fighting hard for reform of DVA in this space because, you know, he kept on coming into contact with people that should have been helping him. And eventually he was so depressed that he took his own life. And that, I think, was part of a turning point where people realize that there's something seriously wrong here. You see a lot of that as a local member. You see a lot of people, whether they're veterans or they're having troubles with Centrelink or another government agency where it's become too impersonal, because we've cut the jobs, and don't even get me started about cuts to the Australian Electoral Commission.
That saw out of 150,000 Territorians, 40,000 not vote at the last Northern Territory election. We've got the worst enrolment rates in the country, going to have the worst voting rates in the country. So the current Federal Government cut the staff of the Australian Electoral Commission from 15 people to three people. Now, what do you reckon some of those people did? It was their job to go out, educate in particular Aboriginal Territorians about the electoral system, help them to get on the roll, help them to know what the elections and the voting system and how it all works and their voice. They cut that team out of the Territory, send it to Brisbane and said oh, they can do that work from Brisbane, which is obviously not happening. So we've got record numbers of Aboriginal Territorians that are just disenfranchised and haven't got a vote.
OVERELL: And are they getting fined for not voting? I imagine they are as well.
GOSLING: It’s not good and it needs to improve and, you know, putting stuff back into our public services in critical areas. Putting the human back into human services is something that I reckon needs to happen, as does decentralisation. You know, there's no reason why we shouldn't have part of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, a part of it, up here in Darwin, engaging with our region. There’s not a reason why a part of the National Indigenous Australians Agency, most of the people are in Canberra. There’s no reason why we can't have more of those public servants up here in Darwin either. Closer to the coalface in the regions, the regions will do better. Canberra will have more of an idea what's going on.
OVERELL: Well, the one question you're going to get from Canberra is what’s the coffee like up there, mate, I think that's the that's the crux of the issue.
GOSLING: Stellar.
OVERELL: Stellar. Alright, we can move a few of the bureaucrats up there, then. Thank you for joining us today, mate, it was a good yarn and it was a good insight to see where Labor's at in 2021. Yeah. Luke Gosling, MP, thank you. Thank you for your service and thank you for talking to us today.
ENDS
