GREG JENNETT, HOST: So as we flagged, I think at the outset, there are developments this afternoon on a bill introduced only this morning into Parliament on Territory Rights. Minister Tony Burke has cleared the way just this afternoon for this private member's bill to be brought on for rapid debate, which is highly unusual. And it could be passed by the House if not later this week, then into the next sitting fortnight in September. The Territory rights that we're talking about here concern the ability of Legislative Assemblies in Darwin and one right here in Canberra to pass laws for voluntary assisted dying. This particular bill was introduced by Labor's Luke Gosling from the Northern Territory. We'll talk to him in a moment. It was seconded by his Canberra counterpart, Alicia Payne.

VISION – ALICIA PAYNE, MEMBER FOR CANBERRA: For 25 years, we have been unable to have that debate and in that 25 years, all other Australian states have passed legislation in this regard. For 25 years, Canberrans have stood up in this place and outside of it to advocate to have our same democratic rights. It is on their behalf that I speak on this bill. I hope that this time our Federal Parliament will do this for our citizens of the ACT. Voluntary assisted dying as an issue with strong views on either side of the discussion and implications for many. It is a debate that we really need to have, and we should be allowed to have. This bill would enable us to do that. This Parliament has tried many times to do this over the years, and as well as my Labor colleagues, I want to acknowledge Senators Lyn Allison, Senators Bob Brown and Richard Di Natale and Senator David Leyonhjelm who have moved bills like this in the past.

JENNETT: So that's how it was introduced. Luke Gosling's bill would overturn the Kevin Andrews Law from the Howard era, which had stood for a quarter of a century now. The Member for Solomon is right here in the studio. Luke Gosling, thanks for joining us. Things are unfolding very quickly. Just on the movement of it, why the urgency for a private member's bill to be chugging away into debate within 24 hours?

LUKE GOSLING, MEMBER FOR SOLOMON: Because the Prime Minister was clear that restoring Territory rights and putting that question to the Parliament was a high priority. There's plenty of other legislation going through the Parliament as well as and some of the big issues. But this is something that's incredibly important to Territorians.

JENNETT: And explain why. Why does this need to be addressed as it is now?

GOSLING: Well in short, Territorians sick of being treated as second-class citizens, which the Andrews Bill does now, by stopping any debate by the Territory Legislative Assemblies on an issue that has already been not only consulted on, debated, and decided on by all states in the Commonwealth. So it's well past time that the Territories were able to have their say on this issue.

JENNETT: So all those parliaments – I’ll just get a broad reflection from you here – all those parliaments, the six of them in the states, have passed some form of voluntary assisted dying laws. What does that say to you about social or moral or even religious acceptance of this in this country, leaving aside the sentiment in the NT or here in the ACT? Do you think this is now post-controversial, non-controversial in Australia?

GOSLING: I think there will always be people with very strong views, and in fact my own view is that I have reservations about voluntary assisted dying. But during the process, if this bill is successful of the Territories having that discussion, you know, people like me will be making sure that there's really strong safeguards to protect vulnerable people. But, it's the end of life. And whenever you're talking about issues to do with end of life – and it's why it's a conscience vote – people have very strong views. I think we've moved on some way. I think the benefits for the Territories is we’ll be able to reflect on the legislation that the states have got and come up with best practice after significant consultation, particularly with First Nations communities like we have in the Territory.

JENNETT: Like a late adopter advantage. I suppose I want to explore the conscience and indeed your own personal reservations about voluntary assisted dying. But this bill isn't about voluntary assisted dying, it's about Territories, right? So why is that a conscience matter per se?

GOSLING: My personal view is the real conscience vote is to be had in the Territories in the same way as it happened in the states. However, because of very strongly held views from some federal parliamentarians that perhaps have been unable to separate the issue of restoring Territory rights with their own personal views, it allows scope there for them to make their views known. But I'm really encouraged that the overwhelming majority of members of the House of Representatives have indicated to us that they see that this is patently unfair, and we want to live in a democratic nation where there aren't second-class citizens in the Territories, that we all have the same rights to debate really important issues that affect our lives.

JENNETT: History has told us that it is difficult to count votes, count heads on conscience issues in any parliament. But you obviously have some assessment that you think the numbers are there. Clearly they're solidly there?

GOSLING: I think in the House of Representatives, members from all over the country, local members who live in the states, have seen that this is something that doesn't quite sit right. And Territorians, I can assure you, we don’t like Canberra intervening into our lives and Canberra has intervened into our lives in the Northern Territory in big ways in the past. But we are mature Legislative Assemblies nowadays, with constituencies that more than able to debate these issues. In fact, a lot of people think in 1995, 1996 it was too early for the Northern Territory to pass that legislation, but we did and it was overturned. After a quarter of a century, it’s more than too long and it's time for us to have that debate again.

JENNETT: And you’ve given that right – in the NT, I won't ask you about the ACT, but in the NT Assembly, do you assess that they would rapidly move to legalise voluntary assisted dying?

GOSLING: No, I think the Chief Minister, Natasha Fyles, is well aware of the history of this and where there were concerns and need for thorough consultation. And as my colleague Marion Scrymgour, the Member for Lingiari has just said in her speech, there's going to be a need for a big education campaign. We saw in some remote areas of the Northern Territory during COVID, a lot of false information spread that really concerned people. And it will be the same with this issue, which is why I'm calling on all parliamentarians just to stick to the facts. If we get this bill through, if the Northern Territory Legislative Assembly moves towards drafting legislation, then let's just keep it a respectful discussion like I hope it is here and in the Senate over the next couple of weeks.

JENNETT: That's a reasonable appeal. Can I explore with you, Luke Gosling, your own not conflicted position, but I suppose a little bit of internal wrestle you've had to conduct with yourself on this because you're facilitating a Territory rights bill. Yet as you're flagged here and in the Parliament, you have your own personal reservations about what it will lead to. How do you reconcile that tension?

GOSLING: That reflection was done some time ago. This will be the third parliament that I've taken a private member's bill to. Obviously in the previous two parliaments under the Coalition it wasn't allowed to come to a vote. But this time—

JENNETT: That’s what's different about this one, right? You can be pretty certain where it's going.

GOSLING: Yeah, but we don't take any votes for granted in the Senate. So our Senate colleagues know that they can talk to any of the ACT Reps or consult widely with medical professionals to think more deeply about it. But again, we come back to the central point, is that this private member's bill is about restoring the rights of the Territories. So it's about self-determination for Territorians but also for their parliaments to make laws that affect them. And I think that's a pretty reasonable offer; all Australians should be treated the same.

JENNETT: Now you MPs from the House don't make it your business to know the mysteries of the Senate, but eventually this would move on to the Senate. Are you just as confident about the lay of the land on the numbers there as you are in your own chamber?

GOSLING: I would not pretend to understand the Senate. However, our Senator Gallagher and Senator Malarndirri McCarthy have indicated strong support. David Pocock, the new ACT Senator is a strong supporter, and I've spoken with Jacinta Price from the Northern Territory and I've written to her just to put forward our argument for the restoration of Territory rights. And I remain hopeful that the Senate will deliver us this long overdue legislation to restore Territory rights.

JENNETT: And one minor sort of point of intersection here. I know you've been around in the Territory long enough to know that the issue of Northern Territory statehood has from time to time reared its head. With this particular thorn having been removed, does that take away any impetus to revisit those sorts of debates?

GOSLING: We need more federal representation in the Territories, and we've indicated – the Government – that we'll be moving towards that. We don't actually need to become a state to get more representation in the Senate, and that's something that we're really keen on for the Northern Territory. We've got four representatives out of 226, 227, which is not many. So we want to see some more representation to more accurately reflect our importance in the nation. Not only economically but from a national security perspective, we're vital. And as we saw Garma on the weekend, we are home to the world's longest living continuous culture. It's a beautiful thing. We need to cherish it and protect it and make sure it's properly represented.

JENNETT: Well in not insignificant way you're contributing to that with this bill. Luke Gosling, I daresay we'll be talking to you again around the time maybe this passes the parliament, but thanks for that update today.

GOSLING: Thanks very much, Greg.